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Minutes of the 7th ECDC meeting in Mechelen-Belgium
on 19th August 2005, organised by the Belgian Dalmatian Club ECDC-committee members present:
Chairman: Tyge Greibrokk (Norway), secretary: Annemiek Morgans (Netherlands), treasurer: Alfred Ronneburg (Germany) ECDC-delegates present:
Inger Hagbohm and Åke Cronander (Sweden), Tyge Greibrokk and Aase Jakobsen (Norway), Sören Jacobsen (Denmark), Ann Sofi Sandbacka and Anders Sandbacka (Finland), Frans de Ridder and Liliane de Ridder-Onghena (Belgium), dr. Dominique Vincent and Sally Ann Clegg (France), Rhys Morgans and Erna Kuipers (Netherlands), Herbert Nagel and Beate Nagel (DDC Germany), Gerhard Herbst (CDF Germany), Simone Zollinger and Kurt Zollinger (Switzerland), Radana Zachova (Czech Rep.), Ivana Bakal (Atila Dubac Croatia).
ECDC-observers officially present:
Pat Wilson and Chris Pickup (BDC England) ECDC-delegates unable to attend:
Pia Pedercini (Italy), Ursula Voitle (Austria) ECDC-delegates absent without apology:
DVD (Germany) ECDC-observers absent:
NoEDC (England) 1. Arrival of the participants. Welcome + coffee
ECDC chairman Tyge Greibrokk welcomed the official delegates of all Dalmatian clubs and other guests. The chairman also thanked the Belgian Dalmatian Club, especially Frans and Liliane de Ridder for the organisation of this ECDC-event, which includes this meeting, the congress and the show on Saturday and mentioned the warm welcome and most impressive hospitality. 2. Welcome from the Belgian Dalmatian Club
Frans de Ridder, chairman of the Belgian Dalmatian Club, welcomed all participants and introduced mr. Frank Comhaire in his function as translator during this meeting. The spoken language during this meeting is English, translations will be made by mr. Comhaire into German and French. 3. Presentation of the delegates from the member-clubs
A presentation followed of the delegates and official observers. Unable to attend: Ursula Voitle from Austria and Pia Pedercini from Italy (due to a personal accident). 4. Chairman's report (T. Greibrokk)
Tyge Greibrokk mentioned that there has not been enough response to the questionnaire. In spite of several reminders a number of clubs have not given any response. The chairman pointed out the importance of the questionnaire: it includes important information which gives the ECDC and all the member-clubs an idea what is going on in the several associated clubs, such as numbers of club members, numbers of litters a year, the existence or non-existence of breeding rules etc. One of the reasons for this was brought forward in that the questionnaire was not available in German. The chairman answered that this should have been reported much earlier. The different data of the questionnaires show a big difference in numbers of club members and numbers of litters born per year within the different clubs. Sally Ann Clegg made a correction regarding the hearing recommendations: in France it is not recommended to breed from unilateral dogs. The Dalmatian Clubs of Croatia, Czechia and the CDF in Germany have not responded at all. The two first mentioned clubs promised to provide the data. The chairman mentioned that the Hungarian Dalmatian Club provided data and had expressed the wish to become a member of the ECDC and that this will be dealt with later on the agenda; that there are more applications for the ECDC-membership from other clubs and that we should try to bring in as much information as possible about the new applicant-clubs. Should we preferably have some rules for allowing new members to join? Is it sufficient that one person from one country founds a club and that club becomes an ECDC-member or should we have some qualifications like number of members, whether they have some recommendations on breeding in their clubs, should we have requirements before we allow clubs to enter as members? The chairman asked to think about these things before having discussions about new memberships later on the day and mentioned this an important question for the future. Should we have a set of rules to go by when new applicants come forward and want to become members of the ECDC? Tyge Greibrokk: "There is no report from the judges commission and they have a good reason for this. They made their essential work during the previous period and did not have anything important to do during the last period. Åke Cronander has suggested that this commission should not continue to exist but I am not certain that it has to stop its activity. It could remain in function and can try to resolve problems if and when they appear. In the end let me just point out to you that in spite of the low activity in the ECDC, I think maintaining this organisation is important for two different reasons: First the breed standard. If something happens to the standard within the FCI, we have an organisation that can act on that. Secondly is the health of the Dalmatian. It is very important to have an organisation available which can act, collect information and distribute this to the member-clubs if a new hereditary disease arises. It is your responsibility to determine which level of activity you wish to have within the ECDC." No remarks followed. 5. Treasurer's report (A. Ronneburg)
Alfred Ronneburg: "In the period of 2001 to 2003 the balance is Euro 10.016,55. In the period between 2003 and 2005, 2160 Euro were used, mainly for the organisation of the meeting in San Remo in 2003. 2300 Euro were used for covering the costs and taking care of the delegates. Of this 700 Euro were contributed by the Italian Dalmatian Club and 1600 Euro have been taken from the ECDC. 520 Euro + 40 Euro were added to the balance for correspondence, postage and other expenses. I am happy that for this meeting a different mode of payment had been adapted by which at least this will not be a burden for the ECDC account. 2042 Euro were used for expenses such as translations of documents and banking costs. The total payments out are 3642 Euro. At the other hand membership fees came in with a total of 3251 Euro. This means a negative balance of 389 Euro over the last 2 years. The balance was closed on 31st of July and 2 clubs paid their membership fees after this date. These are not taken into the balance. The real balance is minus 129 Euro. The total assets today for the ECDC are 9987,41 Euro. There is an additional bill for costs of the domain of the ECDC website of 120 Euro that still has to be paid. The budgeting for the next 2 years with 15 member clubs: 3900 Euro will come in by membership fees. Thanks to the new kind of financing the expected costs of the meeting will be around 1400 Euro. There is no extra funding for costs for mailing etc. The optimistic view is that in 2 years the club will have an asset of about 13000 Euro. Internationally in many countries the assets of clubs are being taxed by the government. It is better not to have too much money and I suggest it to be used for research and health issues. I think it is better to spend the money for the health of our breed than to give it to the politicians." The auditor Herbert Nagel reported that the accounts had been checked and that the treasurer had done an excellent job. Rhys Morgans said that at the meeting in San Remo it was decided that the ECDC would not give financial support to the ECDC committee members. This means that it is very expensive for clubs, having members of the ECDC committee, to pay for their two delegates plus additional for an ECDC committee member (3 persons). He asked the treasurer and all the delegates to think about this and try to reverse the decision of San Remo, so that the costs of the three committee members will be reimbursed by the ECDC. The proposal was referred to point 9 of the agenda. Some delegates asked for a written financial report to be published. The treasurer agreed to take care of this. Sally Ann Clegg asked for publication of a financial report in good time before the next meeting as this would be less time consuming. All agreed to this. There were no further questions and the chairman proposed to accept the financial report and the report of the auditor. All agreed and applause followed for the treasurer for all his work. 6. Membership matters
- The Croatian Dalmatian Club 'HKPDP-Dalmatinac' from observer status to full membership?
In the last meeting in San Remo the club applied for membership. As there were no representatives present and the ECDC had not received any information, neither could any one else give more information, the chairman asked if we should still maintain this club in its observer-status or accept it as full member. Ivana Bakal brought forward that this second Dalmatian Club of Croatia has the same position and the same method of working as the first club. Rhys Morgans proposed to maintain the observer status, as the club had no representatives present here and had not given any information about its activities. A discussion followed. Finally the chairman stated that the club had to be more active to become a full member and proposed to maintain this club as observer. All agreed to this.
- Hungarian Dalmatian Club???
This club applied for membership two years ago and responded to the questions in the questionnaire. There were no representatives here today and nobody could give more information. A discussion followed and in general it was agreed to, that clubs should be more active to become full ECDC members. Julia Swinburn asked for a vote:
The Hungarian Dalmatian Club: to stay as observer 11 votes, full membership 0 votes. 1 abstained
The Croatian HKPDP-Dalmatinac: to stay as observer 11 votes, full membership 0 votes. 1 abstained
- The Portuguese Dalmatian Club: application for membership
The application and some information about the club arrived just before this meeting, signed by José Moura, president of the club. As there was a clubshow in Portugal in the same weekend, there was no representative present. This club was given an observer status after voting with 12 votes until the next meeting. It was agreed to ask the above mentioned observer-clubs to give more information about their clubs and their activities and to be present at the next meeting. There were no further applications. Some representatives of non-associated clubs mentioned they were still thinking about joining, but needed more time. 7. Health and breeding committee report (T.Greibrokk)
Tyge Greibrokk: "No problems have been reported in the last two years. In the last meeting in San Remo we had received information from the member clubs about the ARDS situation in their countries (who are breeding on generations before the first 4 to 5 and who are breeding very close to the carriers), but since we have not received anything before this meeting, I can not give you any information about the past two years. I need registration-data to be able to control what happens in every country, because I know that in several countries there are breeders breeding on generations lower than 5 which is against the recommendations of the ECDC. Some clubs do not follow the recommendations. As chairman of the health committee I need pedigrees of the parents who have been used in breeding and I strongly ask you to send me this information of the last 3 years. I need names of the parents and their pedigrees, no names of the puppies. There has not been any incidence in ARDS since the last case in Finland many years ago and nothing will happen as long as we maintain our policy in this. On the ECDC website you can find names of all the carriers and the first 5 generations after the carriers. The website has not been updated in the last 2 few years, simply because we have no information." Several delegates emphasized the importance of giving the correct information to exclude problems in the future as much as possible. Peter Rance: "What sanctions can be taken if someone is breaking the rules?" Tyge Greibrokk: "We have no rules but recommendations and therefore we have no sanctions. If the ECDC wants to have some kind of punishment for not following the recommendations, the delegates should propose suggestions. I think that recommendations should be sufficient and I expect the member clubs to follow these very few recommendations. These can be followed without many problems." Herbert Nagel: "It is possible that certain veterinarians do not know the syndrome well enough and may not diagnose it when the puppy has the disease. In this case we loose information." Tyge Greibrokk: "As long as the breeders follow the breeding recommendations, there will be no problems. I do not think that we should have an information campaign about this, it will just scare people. This was done many years ago in the Nordic countries and founded the basis for the recommendations we have today." Liliane de Ridder: "Referring to an import dog from Czechia to Denmark, a lot has to do with lack of knowledge of the breeders. It is very important that the national Dalmatian clubs have knowledge about pedigrees, and if necessary, give information to the new owners about the ARDS-status." Stephanie Yates: "There are many young and also experienced breeders who are not aware of ARDS, it is important that clubs provide information. Some clubs have the power to spread the information world wide." Annemiek Morgans: "It is not always lack of knowledge. There are breeders who are breeding with dogs of the 2nd and 3rd generation, who very well know that they are breeding with too low ARDS generations and they still go on breeding, just because they do not want to give up." Tyge Greibrokk asked if the ECDC should publish the names of breeders who are breeding in too low generations. Name and shame? A discussion followed. Should it be published by the national clubs or also by the ECDC? Liliane de Ridder: "Both should be done, as people are travelling a lot and before you know it, you have a problem in your country. Make publications each time and insist on this point, that is the only way to alert people." Rhys Morgans: "There is very good ARDS information available on the ECDC website. But quite a number of member clubs with very good websites have no links to the ECDC website or have buttons that do not function. The information is there, but you should use it and make it work." Tyge Greibrokk mentioned again the importance of receiving reports from the national clubs in order to be able to publish information on the ECDC website. He proposed to make a recommendation to the national clubs to make a list of the names of the parents of litters + names of the breeders using dogs or bitches of 5th generations or lower to publish it in their clubmagazines and also to bring it to the attention of the ECDC. A discussion followed. It was also mentioned that in some countries publishing names of breeders is not allowed due to the law on privacy. Then it was proposed to publish only the names of the parents and combinations. In favour for revealing the results: 11 votes + 1 abstained. Due to time the discussion about ARDS was closed. Tyge Greibrokk mentioned another affliction that needs our attention, mega-oesophagus: "The oesophagus is the tube going down from the throat to the stomach. One talks about mega-oesophagus when the muscle that brings the food down to the stomach, does not work. This problem can be so serious that the puppy may die. It can also be so small that you will not notice it, unless the puppy is X-rayed. This affliction appears in many breeds and recently it seems that it has become a more serious problem among Dalmatians. It is very important to have your support to report cases to the health commission of the ECDC concerning every litter that you know of. The proposition is only to check if there are cases within your clubs, collect the information and send it to us. You can find information about this on internet and at other breed clubs, so far not on our ECDC website. The mechanism of inheritance is not known yet and we need to try to find out more about this. Your information can be of great help." Dr. Dominic Vincent reported about a heart problem concerning three puppies in one litter. It was agreed that it would be good to report all cases of inexplicable deaths. Liliane de Ridder mentioned a succesful method used in another breed club in order to reduce inherited deficiencies, which includes using healthy, older dogs for breeding, at least after 3 or 4 years of age. The advantage is that more is known about these dogs. At least they have proven not to suffer from certain diseases. Also helpful is giving informative lectures. 8. Website report (R. Morgans)
Rhys Morgans expressed the wish to have more up to date information. There had been some computer problems at the beginning of this year, so for some time information did not get there as quickly as it should have been: "If you have any problems with the ECDC website I would like to hear it from you. Everything is checked on three different systems before I say it is OK. Information and communication is very important. When you inform me, I'll change it as soon as I can and I will inform you. I also visited the member club websites and noticed that the ECDC website address is often incorrect and that not all clubs have a link to the ECDC website. Club committees change very often. Please, send me the names of the new committee members or contact addresses." Tyge Greibrokk mentioned the importance of sending the club magazines to the webmaster and secretary in order to improve the exchange of information. There came inquiries for an up-to-date list of the website- and contact addresses plus those of the chairman and secretary of each club. It was agreed that at least once a year a list would be sent to all member clubs to check for any changes. 9. Elections
At present the positions are occupied by:
Chairman Tyge Greibrokk: new candidate (s) required
Treasurer Alfred Ronneburg
Secretary Annemiek Morgans
Auditor Herbert Nagel Tyge Greibrokk was unable to continue his work as chairman for the ECDC due to new responsibilities in his work. There was only one candidate for this position: Frans de Ridder. He was chosen with a majority of 11 votes. Treasurer: Alfred Ronneburg wished to continue and as there were no other candidates, he was chosen unanimously. Secretary: Annemiek Morgans found re-election in the ECDC committee to be difficult, not being a committee member of the Dutch Dalmatian Club. Rhys Morgans referred to his proposal brought forward earlier under agenda point 5. Tyge Greibrokk asked the delegates whether the ECDC should pay for the costs of their committee members absolutely or only in case they are not sent by their delegate-clubs not being a committee member of the national clubs. Payment means only refunding the costs, not an honorarium. Frans de Ridder was referring to the discussion at the San Remo meeting, saying that the ECDC is not a financially strong organisation and we should try to keep the expenses as low as possible. After more discussions the following proposition came forward: If an ECDC committee member is not a committee member of the national club/not an official delegate, the ECDC will pay the travelling expenses. Tyge personally suggested to support this proposition: "Very often the ECDC committee members will be delegates, but if it happens that they are not, we should be able to refund the expenses." Herbert Nagel calculated that for the San Remo meeting the costs for 2 members of the board had been 1100 Euro. For a third person the costs would be over 1500 Euro, which is more or equal to the incoming membership fees. Tyge Greibrokk: "If this would become a financial problem for the ECDC, there is always the possibility to change it for the next meeting." After a discussion the following proposal was voted upon: If the national club is not paying for the expenses for either chairman, treasurer or secretary the ECDC will pay. Votes in favour: 7, against 4, abstaining 1. There were no other candidates. Annemiek Morgans was prepared to continue and this was unanimously agreed upon. Herbert Nagel wished to continue as auditor and was unanimously re-elected. Health and Breeding Committee: T. Greibrokk (chairman), Å. Boholm, M. Greening, R. Zachova and R. Morgans
Although resigning as chairman, Tyge Greibrokk expressed his wish to continue his position in this committee. All delegates agreed by applauding. He said that he would like to see more activity, that he had received deafness reports from Mary Greening and data from Rhys Morgans, but that he would like to see more information from Czechia and other countries. As dr. Vincent from France is interested in health matters, Tyge Greibrokk proposed him as new member in the committee. All current members wished to continue and were re-elected with Tyge Greibrokk as chairman. Dr. Vincent was elected. The new Health and Breeding Committee: T. Greibrokk (chairman), Å. Boholm, M. Greening, R. Zachova, R. Morgans and dr. D. Vincent. Judging committee: Å. Cronander (chairman), L. de Ridder, A. Jacobsen, A. Ronneburg and R. Zachova
The continuation of the committee was discussed. Rhys Morgans wanted to maintain the committee, especially as standby when it is needed. Åke Cronander said that his suggestion was based on the lack of activity in the committee, but that he wanted to withdraw that suggestion. He also mentioned that he would like to see more input/information from the club members. All current members wished to continue and were re-elected with Åke Cronander as chairman. 10. Proposals of dates and places for future meetings
- Info ECDC show 2007 in Croatia from Ivana Bakal
- ECDC in 2009?
At the last meeting in San Remo it was decided to have the next meeting and show in Croatia in 2007 on the condition that Croatia should be a member of the EU. The Croatian Dalmatian Club Atila Dubac had offered to organise this event and had made an impressive presentation. The problem however is, that it is very uncertain if Croatia will be an EU-member in time. If not, this will have consequences for dogs coming from Scandinavia and Great Britain. They will not be able to participate at the show. It will also mean that participants from all ECDC-clubs will not be able to enter Scandinavian countries and Great Britain for 6 months. A discussion followed about the pro's and con's concerning Croatia as the next location. Rhys Morgans said that an ECDC dog show should be open to ALL members without any adverse consequences and that this should be seen as nothing personal towards Croatia or the Croatian Dalmatian Club. The delegates of Croatia, however, wished to organize the ECDC-event in their country as planned. Tyge Greibrokk proposed to organise the event in 2008 to give more time to the process of Croatia becoming a member of the EU. The Croatian delegates mentioned that there is no guarantee for an EU membership in 2008 and wanted to keep to the date of 2007 in order to be able to organise the ECDC event in conjunction with the European CACIB Show in Zagreb. After long discussions the chairman finally recommended to have the meeting in Croatia in 2007: "There is the problem that dogs from various countries will not be able to participate, but it is probably more important to let the Croatians have the meeting and the show and to have full cooperation from the ECDC and not to create any bad feelings." The next question was for any other suggestions for places in 2007. Katerina Malovic proposed Prague as an alternative. Liliane de Ridder said that the Czech Dalmatian Club had not been very cooperative towards the organisation of the current event and therefore had the opinion that Croatia deserved the event in 2007. A voting followed:
Croatia in 2007: in favour 5 votes
Czechia in 2007: in favour 3 votes
The next ECDC event will be in 2007 in Croatia. The chairman asked for suggestions for the meeting and show in 2009/2010. Aase Jacobsen proposed Norway. A voting followed:
Czechia in 2009/2010: in favour 3 votes
Norway in 2009/2010: in favour 9 votes
The ECDC event will be in Norway in 2009/2010. 11. Diverse questions
Proposal from dr. D. Vincent from France:
'Is it possible for the ECDC to organise a joint effort among the various member countries in order to harmonise the major criteria for (breeding) selection?' (Such as deafness, character, dentition, size, hipdysplasia)
Dr. Vincent asked if it would be possible to realise a common agreement within the different clubs, and in cooperation with the breeding and health committee of the ECDC, to establish a general protocol within all member clubs to which all clubs would agree. This is to improve a positive cooperation within all member clubs concerning all agreements. Tyge Greibrokk pointed out that the health and breeding commission will collect all this kind of information and will report the results, if they think there is a possibility to have some common ground on this. Stephanie Yates said that problems might rise, as some clubs have their own rules and also have to obey their kennel club rules and FCI rules. Alfred Ronneburg said that already in 1993 during the first meeting it was decided to try to bring all these different rules in the diverse clubs and countries, the FCI rules and health related matters under one numerator. This was one of the actual reasons for the establishment of an European cooperation. Not to meet each other every two years, but to realise common agreements. Unfortunately these goals have not been achieved as yet, for example, agreements concerning the most important issues for breeding. Mr. Comhaire: The problem is that during the last 10 years it has not yet been possible to harmonise the different rules in the different countries as far as hereditary diseases are concerned. Today the FCI is making agreements with the national breed clubs. It has already been done recently and it will do more and more. In the past the FCI has never cooperated with international clubs, but they are starting to do it now and within this framework they are working on rules that could be applicable for all the countries within the FCI. According to Liliane de Ridder the FCI is only dealing with the national kennel clubs and not with the individual national breed clubs. Mr. Comhaire said that in the last issue of the FCI magazine it is reported that they have made an agreement already with a national breed club. The FCI is changing its politics and will now cooperate with international breed clubs and will make an association. Tyge Greibrokk: "We would like to have all your opinions about what regulations or recommendations you want, depending on the laws and rules in every club and every country. We would like you to send all information to the breeding and health commission. Within this commission we will see what the possibilities are. We need to collect as much information as possible." 12. Closing of the meeting
Tyge Greibrokk thanked all participants for their contribution and forwarded a big 'thank you' to the organisers Liliane and Frans de Ridder and their team for making such an exceptional organisation of this event. This was agreed to with an applause. Frans de Ridder, the new chairman, invited all the representatives to attend the next meeting in Croatia and thanked Tyge Greibrokk for all his work as chairman during the past years. According to Frans de Ridder: "We are working in different countries with different rules and different languages We are in the Common Market but nothing is 'common'. We should at least try to have common recommendations. I do not think we can go as far as rules as the circumstances are too different. In some countries the breed clubs are very powerful, in other countries the national kennel clubs have more power. That is our main problem. But it should be our aim to achieve common agreements." Annemiek Morgans
ECDC secretary
www.ecdc.org
23-01-06 |
